To
correctly browse our Website, please install Khmer Unicode font
and then restart your Computer.
មតិសារពត៏មាន
- Prime Minister Hun
Sen "We cannot work without
support"
Hun Sen: 'We cannot work without support'
Prime Minister Hun
Sen
has led
Cambodia for the last 23 years, becoming
the longest-serving prime minister in
Southeast Asia and, as deputy president
of the ruling Cambodian People's Party (CPP)
and the CPP's premiership candidate, he
will continue to play a large role after
July's national elections.
In
these translated excepts from an exclusive
Khmer-language interview with
Neth Pheaktra,
editor-in-chief of The
Mekong Times,
the premier discussed
the economy, development, corruption, the
Khmer Rouge Tribunal, the upcoming election
and his political goals.
On what do you base
your predictions of a Cambodian People's
Party (CPP) victory in the July 27
parliamentary elections?
As far as my prediction
on the success of the CPP in the election is
concerned, a similar assessment has been
made in both international and national
circles. On what basis does the CPP expect
to win the election? The CPP began building
its support base in 1993 with the winning of
51 seats at the National Assembly [NA], then
64 seats in 1998 and 73 seats in 2003. This
basis is the foundation of [the CPP's]
support when it faces difficulties. However,
in the third mandate government, [Cambodia]
achieved double-digit economic growth,
poverty has been reduced, and people's
living conditions and the physical
infrastructure has improved. These
[achievements] will attract people in the
upcoming election.
I do not think that the
number of our [CPP] NA seats will be lower
than 73 because of what we have achieved so
far. In fact, we are not being overly
ambitious. In the 2007 commune council
election, we examined the number of ballot
votes and calculated them against the number
of parliamentarian seats — we would have won
90 seats [if it had been a parliamentary
election]. However, the CPP's target is only
81, with some constituencies we are
determined to keep. In some
[constituencies], we want to take seats. For
example, in Kampot province, we had only
four seats in the second mandate, but we
lost one seat. Now, we just want to increase
it to four seats, not five. In Prey Veng
province, we lost one seat but that does not
mean that we lost supporters; it is due to
the fact ... [voters ticked the wrong
column. So we are] determined to take one
seat back. For other provinces, we urged for
an increase in the numbers [of NA seats
under CPP control].
"I
n
the past, Cambodia had both enemies and
friends, but now Cambodia has onfy friends
in the world"
If we can achieve 81 seats or more, it would
be good but the winning of 73 seats will
allow us victory. The CPP's victory was
achieved in 1998 with the winning of 53
percent [of the votes]. So, it is not
difficult to form a government as the "two
thirds formula" has already been abandoned
[in favor of "50 percent plus one"].
This is the basis ... [of
CPP's rising percentage of the vote] from 51
to 64 and from 64 to [a predicted] 73. The [CPP
support] base has grown along with the good
performance of the CPP and government in
providing support [direct aid] to people
until we were banned by the [Election] law
... [I]t could be said that the CPP provides
[support] to people 'like drizzle'. Thus the
people trust us because they are sure of the
benefits.
[The CPP also hopes to
benefit from] ... a big fracturing of the
opposition parties. Funcinpec — which gained
26 NA seats [in 2003] — is divided into
Funcinpec and the Norodom Ranariddh Party [NRP].
So, [according to] political
strategies or military tactics, neither
Funcinpec nor the NRP have a chance to
attack [the CPP].
The Sam Rainsy Party [SRP]
is in a 'bloody situation' prior to the
election. I do not want to criticize other
parties, but competing for the number one
position is not easy. However, politicians
are always bragging about their planned
victory. We must not [overlook] their chance
[to win the election], but they also have to
accept the CPP's chances. We have to know
our own resources clearly and the resources
of newly-formed parties.
The attempt to form a
royalist and democrat alliance has
foundered. The division I mentioned earlier
is due to the registration of parliamentary
candidates and also I think because of
competition for senior positions amongst
opponents. They have no chance to marshal
enough forces to attack the CPP. I regret
that they said their alliance is aimed at
defeating the CPP. They do not need to
defeat the CPP — as it would [disappear] if
they won the election. They are only able to
talk; they cannot even defeat [their
partners] ... They compete for "opposition"
status and cannot work together. I think
it is better if they
stay [separate].
I only mention three
opposition parties — the Sam Rainsy Party [SRP],
the Norodom Ranariddh Party [NRP] and the
Human Rights Party [HRP] ...
I think that it
is good if they cannot unite because, when
they merge together, who will be the
president? Problems could arise ... [D]ivision
amongst the opposition will be wider if the
parties merge together. If we melt three
glasses into one, when it breaks, the pieces
will be larger.
[I]n 1998, when Funcinpec
and the SRP formed an alliance to oppose the
government ... after the alliance broke,
conflict between them was bigger. In 2003,
they again formed an alliance to oppose the
CPP and me. However, when it broke
up, their conflict was
bigger [than in
1998],with Prince Norodom Ranariddh filing a
lawsuit against Sam Rainsy. It was I who
asked for Sam Rainsy's pardon ...
International factors
also favor the CPP in the election. In 1993
how many countries supported the CPP? In
1998, how many supported and opposed the CPP?
In 2003, we still saw a little foreign
hostility towards us. However, in 2008,
those countries did not just support the CPP
but are now cooperative partners with the
government. In the second mandate, I
introduced a triangular strategy with 'an
angle' to integrate Cambodia into the region
and the world. We have to date been involved
in a framework of full cooperation,
including UN operations. We have sent troops
to Sudan [to clear mines] and Mongolia and
Bangladesh to join military training ...
In the past, Cambodia had
both enemies and friends, but now Cambodia
has only friends in the world.
To
form a government, a political party must
have 50 percent plus one of the NA seats. If
the CPP wins a majority, will there be any
partners in government?
It is a no to new
partners. There is a possibility of an old
partner. I would like to strongly reiterate
what
I have said on radio
and television: that the CPP cannot partner
with the SRP [We] have two simple reasons;
firstly, because of the 50 percent plus one
formula, we do not need other parties;
secondly, domestic and international
policies are widely different [between the
two parties]. Because the political gap is
too wide, we cannot work together. They [the
SRP] always oppose us whenever we propose
any plan. So,
it means that after
the election we cannot work together ...
As for Funcinpec, I think
that a coalition might happen. But according
to our Constitution, the prime minister can
only form a new government with members from
other parties which have won NA seats. If
the party has no seats at the NA, the
party's officials can only be appointed as
under secretaries of state or government
advisors. If we allow them into government,
we are breaking the Constitution.
I can confirm that we
could see new forces from the SRP. We have
appointed SRP officials as under secretaries
of state and government advisors, and will
promote the officials to secretaries of
state or include them [in government]
following the election. Funcinpec officials
who have already defected to the CPP and
were appointed as ministers, secretaries of
state or under secretaries of state can keep
their positions.
"As
you
have seen,
the CPP
has a lot of
human resources, but it sill needs other
resources from [other parties to help
develop the country/.
However;
lf the whole
opposition party wants to merge with the CPP,
we cannot accept it because the political
gap is too wide."
My language is easy to
understand — namely 'keeping the old and
adding the new' ... As you have seen, the
CPP has a lot of human resources, but it
still needs other resources. However, if the
whole opposition [SRP] party wants to merge
with the CPP, we cannot accept it because
the political gap is too wide.
The
delay in adopting the long- awaited
anti-corruption law has been criticized by
civil society, with the Cambodian Center for
Human Rights collecting over one million
thumbprints in protest. Is the government
doing enough to combat corruption?
I would like to reiterate that the
government does not wish to delay the
approval of the anti-corruption bill. But we
must prioritize. I have explained to other
people that we are delaying the law's
adoption because we want to speed up the
approval of [French-backed] penal code.
Do you believe that these
thumbprints are real?
I accept there has been some
thumbprint [collection], but this NGO [the
Cambodian Center for Human Rights] dares not
reveal who has made the thumbprints because
it fears there would be something amiss
uncovered with its leader and others. This
is because the public was allowed to
anonymously put [their written allegations
of corruption] into a letterbox created by
the center. Do you think when they collected
these one million thumbprints they explained
[why] to people? Even one million marbles
are difficult to count, but one million
people — that's ridiculous. One million
thumbprints are not difficult to come by —
one person can produce 100 or 200 or 400 or
500 thumbprints. ... [Perhaps] some of those
who thumb printed the appeal thought it was
an appeal for aid.
I don't know how these
thumbprints were produced, but
I know that
allegations of corruption are not new in
Cambodia. In any country, when any person is
to be toppled, corruption allegations are
used. You can see in neighboring Thailand.
They accused Thaksin Shinawatra of
committing corruption and then carried out a
coup to overthrow him. Military officials
also filed a lawsuit, asking for permission
to dissolve Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai Party
and ban 111 politicians from engaging in
politics. However, because Samak Sundaravej
formed the People's Power Party and used the
name of Thaksin [during the election
campaign, he] ... won the election.
The CPP government does
not pay lesser attention to corruption ...
Previously, before investors could obtain
permission to run their businesses, they had
to spend a lot of time filling in forms for
one office or another. After our reforms do
the investors still complain about the
delays and `under-the-table' charges with
trade registration mentioned during
the Government-Private
Sector Forum in 1999? No such complaints
were heard at the latest forum ...
[We] have introduced a
"One Stop Service" where we have tried to
re- duce corruption through the
establishment of a workplace where customs
officials, Camcontrol officials, and border
police are put under one roof. So, though
[we have yet to pass] the law on corruption
... we have reduced corruption.
In addition, though we
have stopped large-scale commercial logging
in the past several years, we accept that
some illegal logging activities still
persist. However, the large-scale logging
and the transportation of logs, which
resulted in bridge collapses between 1993
and 1998, no longer exists. This shows how
we are involved in the fight against
corruption. In our reform of fishing lots,
the people have been allowed control over 56
percent [of fishing lots] covering more than
halfa-million hectares of lakes, to reduce
corruption. Existing laws were made with the
inclusion of penalties so we do not need to
wait for the anti-corruption law ... for
example; if you encroach on other people's
land, we will use the Land Law, and if you
log the forest, the Forestry Law will be
used. If you fish illegally, we will use the
Fishery Law.
I think that those who
want to attack
the government over corruption might not be
able to do so, as they are committing
corruption in a larger form. They commit
corruption even though they have yet to gain
power. The government never ignores the
fight against corruption.
The
relationship between the government and
international human rights organizations
seems to be difficult. Why? What must be
done to change Cambodia's reputation?
It is very clear that a
controversy has broken out, most seriously
when [Special Representative of the UN
Secretary General on Human Rights in
Cambodia] Yash Ghai was here. It is easy to
understand that we cannot cooperate together
as he said things that were contrary to the
facts. I do not need to elaborate. If he
speaks the truth, I will welcome his
cooperation, but if he continues saying
things contrary
to
the facts, I will not
cooperate.
I
did not expel him. He
can visit whenever he wants. I do not need
his praise, I do not need his criticism, and
I
ask him only to speak
the truth. If he does not speak the truth
and he sees us as enemies, why must we
cooperate with him? [I] ask him to work with
anyone he can. Please go ahead! I am not
stopping [him].
"if /Yash
Ghai/ speaks the truth, I will welcome his
cooperation, but ,/ he continues saying
things contrary to thefacts, I will not
cooperate. I do not expel him. /Yash Ghai]
can visit whenever he wants. I do not need
his praise, I do not need his criticism, and
I ask him only to speak the truth. If he
does not speak the truth and he sees us as
enemies, why must we cooperate with him?
As for me, I can play
around with a dog or with other animals, but
I
do not play with a
person who has reason and yet acts like an
animal. Saying so is serious, but they
[international human rights organizations]
seem to us
to
be animals, and fierce
animals at that. I would like to stress
again that my most easy-to-understand
objection is that they violate the facts and
accuse us unjustly. This is why the
controversy broke out. I
just ask them to do
what they can speak the truth. I do not ask
for praise but I
also do not want to be
unfairly demeaned.
I appeal for the truth.
If they say they made a mistake, it will be
easy for me to correct them. What should I
do? For instance, concerning the Turn Ring
rubber plantation measuring thousands of
hectares, they [NGO Global Witness] said
that Turn Ring has not a single rubber tree.
This example alone is enough for me to know
I don't need to work with [Global Witness]
because this is not how human beings behave.
Tum Ring does not have a single tree, but
rather has millions of trees ...
I am busy with my work
and do not have anything to discuss with
such people. If Cambodia does not have this
type of people, it's like the old saying:
"If a cock does not crow, the sun will still
surely rise." Human rights groups were not
here when we liberated the country from the
Pol Pot regime and provided rights and
freedom for people. So, 29 years ago in
Cambodia, we fulfilled our obligations. What
are the important rights? The right to life
is the first and foremost and the most
important. Where were those people then? The
right to receive food, the right to receive
education, and the right to [free] speech -
all these rights existed before. Yash Ghai
had not yet arrived to preach, yet we had
already provided these rights.
Will
the government grant funds for the
financially beleaguered Khmer Rouge
Tribunal?
I
think that the United Nations and some
countries are causing other countries to
lose confidence in the trials. Previously,
they forced us to deal with the issue ...
though in 1979
I
already sentenced [the
Khmer Rouge leadership]. Regarding the Paris
Peace Accords, I negotiated for a long time
about the Khmer Rouge Trial, but other
countries did not agree. When the Khmer
Rouge weakened, their political organization
and military were dissolved, and were all
integrated. They [the Khmer Rouge defectors]
imposed restrictions on us day after day
when we were negotiating with the UN.
"
I call
on the UN and those who promised to provide
money [ for the Khmer Rouge tribunal ].
Any failure of the court due to budget
shortages is not Cambodia's responsibiliy."
The negotiations [for the
Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of
Cambodia, or Khmer Rouge Tribunal] were made
with a pledge to grant funds. We also made
great efforts to do the work within the
means of our meager budget, and [we had to
allocate] part of that money for the cost of
water and electricity, accommodation and
security. It is not cheap - the court uses a
lot of money.
Now we hear of delays! I
think that the process can work quicker, but
I
have no right to set
the procedures of the court or push the
court to do this or that. I don't have any
rights concerning this issue. But regarding
Cambodia's possibility to provide additional
budget, my answer is that, if [I offer
money], it will be a small amount because I
need to build bridges, roads and canals for
the people. I call on the UN and those who
promised to provide money. Any failure of
the court due to budget shortages is not
Cambodia's responsibility.
Cambodia is often depicted in the media as
reliant on aid for survival and as a country
which has done little to alleviate poverty
since1993. What is your view of such an
appraisal?
First of all, we have to
see the achievements that have been made as
'starting from empty hands'. How has
Cambodia progressed? In the last four years,
double-digit economic growth has been a
miracle only China could duplicate. Can we
say that our governance is not good when it
provided the opportunity for double- digit
economic growth? National annual revenues
have increased nearly 23 percent. Would such
an increase be possible without good
governance? If everything was bad, maybe
Cambodia would be in a similar situation to
Myanmar which receives almost no
humanitarian assistance or financial
assistance, besides that provided by China,
India and other countries with a close
relationship ...
But for Cambodia, you can
see that the IMF decided to cancel debt
worth US$82 million. What is the reason? The
IMF thoroughly examines evidence. What has
Cambodia achieved? Why did [the IMF]
eliminate the debt, transferring the money
for canal construction? ... The World Bank
[WB] and the Asian Development Bank [ADB]
still offer financing and assistance. I
would like to explain why.
The
IMF left Cambodia in
19961997 as, at the time, Cambodia did not
follow the codes of conduct we had agreed
with the IMF. But now the IMF has returned
to work in Cambodia in the second and third
mandates, and during the third mandate, it
canceled debt worth US$82 million ...
[The] ADB and the WB
provide loans [only if a country's]
classification is good. If they think we
cannot repay them, they would not allow us
to borrow.
Previously Japan was
hesitant in providing loans to Cambodia but
now it allows us to borrow. The former
[Japanese] deputy minister of finance and
former minister of foreign affairs told me
that [Cambodia] should borrow money from
Japan ... At the time, I reminded [the
Japanese] that Japan had previously been
afraid Cambodia could not repay loans, but
they immediately said that Cambodia is able
to repay ...
Go and ask the IMF why it
eliminated Cambodia's debt. Go and ask the
WB and the ADB why they granted aid and
loans ... [I]f we did not govern well and
deal with labor issues fairly, perhaps the
US would not buy clothing from Cambodia. But
perhaps Cambodia is mostly on the right
track. We did not eliminate all deficiencies
- if people do not recognize deficiencies
and say that everything is good, they are
quick to fall. I recognize deficiencies so,
regarding the rectangular strategy we
recently reviewed, we admit there are many
points that must be improved in future. That
is not the end.
I stated that, if we
continue reforms, we have a 99 percent
chance of survival [success] and a one
percent of death [failure]. But if we do not
reform, we have a 99 percent chance of death
[failure] and a one percent chance of
survival [success]. Therefore, we must
encourage reform.
Cambodia is a member of both Asean and the
World Trade Organization [WTO] but Cambodian
exports are not that competitive. What will
the government do to raise Cambodia's game?
If we examine the issues
of competition within the framework of trade
which receives preference from the WTO, we
are still weak. Our weakness is that we are
a new member. Our production base and
markets can be compared to old members or
new members, but their goods sources are
stronger, for example, another new member,
Vietnam. [Some] new members ... are more
like old members because their production
base is better than ours. They only recently
obtained membership, but they have a better
production base. We are one of the old
members, but our production base does not
match other countries, except in textile
production. Thus we can be considered fairly
competitive.
Regarding agriculture,
perhaps Cambodia still has much potential.
The food crisis in global markets created a
big opportunity for Cambodia and its
farmers. The lifting of the ban on rice
exports is Cambodia's gesture to fulfill its
obligation to assist countries facing
problems related to food prices and food
shortages. It also shows Cambodia's
preparedness to compete and open markets in
other countries facing food crises.
I
told the commerce
minister that, when exporting rice to
Senegal, we must find other African
countries that can export [rice to countries
such as Senegal]. But in some places, we
[cannot compete]. For instance, if we
compare the quality of our rice with Thai
and Vietnamese rice, their rice is better
quality. We cannot win that competition ...
I think that such
achievements are sufficient if we consider
our start from scratch. How much did
Cambodia export before? Even until 1994, our
exports totaled about US$200 million.
Textile exports totaled only US$4 million.
But textile exports in 2007 totaled US$2.9
billion ... and our total exports reached
over US$4 billion. Our scope of exports is
very big for a small country. Laos exported
less than US$1 billion even though it has
developed without the disasters that have
befallen Cambodia. But the scope of
Cambodia's exports is not yet enough. We
need to achieve bigger exports through the
strengthening of our economy.
Some opposition politicians have criticized
you over alleged loss of territory to
neighboring countries. What is your
response?
First of all, I should
reitierate that in Cambodia and Thailand, if
any person is to be toppled, that
person will be charged with corruption.
Cambodia has only two stories. If anyone
wants to be opposed, then that person will
be charged with corruption and border
irregularities. It is not unusual. General
Lon Nol and his clique conducted a coup
against Samdech Norodom Sihanouk and
sentenced him using these two kinds of
allegation — firstly corruption and secondly
selling land to Vietnam. Regarding border
issues, [famous Cambodian singer] Sin
Sisamuth's song relating to border issues
was broadcast on TV with a map shown. If
they [the opposition] want to oppose anyone,
they use three main allegations —
corruption, border issues and immigration.
You can wait and see that whenever anyone
comes to power, they [the political
opposition] will use these three issues to
oppose that person. If the CPP became the
opposition party, it would not raise these
allegations it knows so well.
I am a man of the younger
generation born in 1952. The French National
Assembly ceded Kampuchea Krom to Vietnam in
1949. Now,
I
am accused of losing
Kampuchea Krom territory. How can people
accuse me of that? Particularly, Prince
Norodom Ranariddh's groups alleged that I
adopted the Cambodia-Vietnam border treaty
when the prince was the president of the
National Assembly. In fact, the prince's
grandparents and father with surnames of
Norodom and Sisowath were the rulers at that
time. This issue did not happen during Hun
Sen's era, it occurred in the regime of the
Kingdom of Cambodia [constitutional monarchy
under King Norodom Sihanouk] and during the
French colonial times. More regrettably, at
the time, the Cambodian delegation
abstained. Please, research the documents.
Why say that I am the one who lost [this
territory]? I just take responsibility for
the territory left by the French colonists,
according to the decisions of France's
Indochinese General Governor and the map
that Samdech Norodom Sihanouk kept at the
UN.
It is a pity that some
politicians allege Cambodia loses 100
meters, 200 meters, 300 meters or more of
territory each day. The people residing
along borders express surprise ... This is a
very big strategic mistake.
Why? The people living
along borders farm land and build houses
near borders ... [T]he CPP wins all the
votes of those people living in communes
near borders. Why? Because opposition
politicians look down [on border residents].
If kilometers [of Cambodian territory] are
lost along the borders everyday, where do
those residents live? On Thai, Lao,
Vietnamese or Cambodian soil? Clearly, they
still live in Cambodian territory. They are
Cambodian nationals. Therefore, looking down
on people living along the border is enough
for them [opposition politicians] to lose.
I do not need to correct
them. Do they fool border residents? They
cannot. They try to fool 'insiders' [people
living far from the borders], but they
cannot because 'insiders' have siblings
living near borders and people can now
communicate by phone where previously, there
were no telephone connections ... This is
the tactical or strategic mistake of those
[opposition] politicians.
You
were one of the youngest democratically
elected prime ministers and the prime
minister who has served longest in Southeast
Asia. What does the future hold for Hun Sen?
I was the
youngest prime minister in the past, but now
maybe
I
am one of the oldest
prime ministers at present, because prime
ministers and presidents in some countries
are only 30 to 40 years old, and I am over
50 years old ...
"If
people do not vote for the CPP], it means
that they do not need us - we don't need to
make further efforts. We will leave without
any regrets."
What is my political
goal? In fact, to be prime minister is very
tiring. But we must tolerate the fatigue to
seek the people's happiness. If the CPP did
not back me, people would not vote for the
CPP. The CPP uses the name of Hun Sen to
campaign, saying that, if the CPP wins
elections, Hun Sen will be prime minister.
It clearly means that, if you like Hun Sen,
please vote for the CPP. I must continue to
shoulder burdens to seek happiness for
[Cambodian] people and meet the people's
requests. If people do not vote [for the CPP],
it means that they do not need us — we don't
need to make further efforts. We will leave
without any regrets ...
If we listen to the voice
of opposition groups, their voice is really
fierce and frightening. If they are promoted
to the position of prime minister, what will
they do? For example, confiscating
properties from the rich to distribute to
the poor, and the cancellation of foreign
con tracts — how much turmoil will be
caused? In Zimbabwe, after [President
Robert] Mugabe caused chaos the results of
the first election were invalid. And during
the second election an opposition candidate
was arrested. How could we allow a country
that has just achieved peace to plunge into
such a situation? ...
I have announced that I
will continue to stand as premiership
candidate until the people no longer need
me. To make it clear, [we] do not need to
set a maximum term [for prime minister]
because no government dictates [maximum
prime ministerial] terms. Setting a maximum
term could occur in a presidential regime;
for example, in the US and in France.
However, no country has set a maximum term
for prime ministers.
Why do they [opposition
politicians] request a maximum prime
minister's term? It could be that they are
afraid of me, Hun Sen. If the present prime
minister was not Hun Sen, they might not
make such a proposal. If [the leader is]
weak, they keep the leader in the place so
that they will find it easy to defeat them.
They never request a weak leader to step
down, because they can [easily] attack such
a leader. So, these people [who suggest a
maximum term] should admit they are unable
to defeat Hun Sen if Hun Sen stands [as
premiership candidate] ...
On the other hand, we can
see the [CPP is] developing human resources.
We have assigned young officials to
[positions in] the party and in state
institutions because we know the current
officials will not live to be 500-years-old.
I do not have the longevity to serve as
prime minister until I turn 90 or 100.
However, I am able to work as prime minister
until they [political opposition figures]
become old and have no power to compete ...
Thus, I would like to announce that I will
stand as the premiership candidate until the
people no longer need me.
However, we also consider
the possibility of resigning if many
mistakes are made or if we are not able to
carry out reform. In such a situation, we
should [resign] and transfer power to other
people so that they can improve the
situation. I will not resist [any such
demands for my resignation] ...I
want to stress that we
cannot work without support.